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 Why so much torque on the front axle nut?

 Created by: benino
Orig. Posting Date User Name Edit Date
Mar 13, 2020 08:12AM CooperTune  
Mar 12, 2020 07:37PM Hunter2  
Mar 12, 2020 11:14AM 66coop  
Mar 5, 2020 11:01AM benino Edited: Mar 5, 2020 11:07AM 
Mar 2, 2020 08:37PM bikewiz  
Mar 2, 2020 10:34AM benino Edited: Mar 2, 2020 10:38AM 
Feb 21, 2020 06:11AM h_lankford Edited: Feb 21, 2020 09:14AM 
Feb 21, 2020 05:48AM bikewiz Edited: Feb 21, 2020 05:58AM 
Feb 21, 2020 12:20AM benino Edited: Feb 21, 2020 11:00AM 
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 Posted: Mar 13, 2020 08:12AM
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What do you imagine happens to the aluminum alloy drive flanges. Steve (CTR)

 Posted: Mar 12, 2020 07:37PM
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CA
After doing everything properly, then driving from the Pacific Coast of Canada to Arizona for a Mini Meet, then across the continent to the Smoky Mountains and north to Mini Meet in Maryland...we headed home.  Stopped overnight in St, Louis for the 4th of July, then headed west on the 5th.

While crossing Missouri on the Interstate, I drove into an unmarked pot hole at 70 mph right before a bridge.  The pot hole threw the Mini trailer 'Hunny Pot' up into the air and it bounced side to side.  Everyone backed off and I accelerated across the bridge to pull the trailer into line.

What I did NOT realize was that the shock of hitting that pot hole broke the torque on the right front hub nut.  A few days later I was hearing an intermitent tap, tap, tap...tap, tap....tap, tap, tap, tap.  When it struck me that this occurred only when steering to the left, I pulled over, jacked up the right front wheel, withdrew the spit pin...I could turn the nut with my fingers.  I knew it wasn't bearings (no wobble etc.) so cranked the nut to 150 ft. lbs.(Cooper S brakes) and drove home.  75 ft.lbs. torque to break the nut loose and the face of the drive flange was recessed.

Since I have had drive flanges for 8.4" Metro brakes wear in normal driving after less than 2,000 miles.  Turns out there are Heavy Duty drive flanges & Trailer Queen drive flanges...but suppliers are not necessarily full informing buyers.  This is a quality problem that our industry leading suppliers MUST address.  Parts must meet OEM standards or we are all going to suffer.

Long story short Benino, check your drive flange thrust faces for any recession...

 Posted: Mar 12, 2020 11:14AM
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I like the suggestions Bikewiz! To install, I use the special large, thick flat washer they sell that you use first to seat everything. You then removed and retorque with the split cone washer.

Didnt know there was a solid cone or a 12 point. I am going to look into those.

 Posted: Mar 5, 2020 11:01AM
 Edited:  Mar 5, 2020 11:07AM
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Thanks again.  You've been extremely helpful.  I got a haynes manual now and see the diagram you are referring to and the torquing procedure.
I was using a manual I found on cardiagn.com.  I just re-read the procedure on that one now and saw nothing about the torquing procedure.  

I ordered the KAD tapered washers.  I just pulled mine and they have cracks in them.  Hopefully the new ones don't take too long to arrive.     

 Posted: Mar 2, 2020 08:37PM
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Quote:
Where does this KAD washer get installed?  Is it in place of that one I mentioned above or is it the washer that goes directly under the axle nut over the outer wheel bearing?
The KAD washer replaces the cone shaped split washer. The hub needs to be torqued with a flat washer first. Do you have a Haynes manual?
Chapter 10 in the blue cover 0646 version gives instructions and a schematic of the front hub.

https://haynes.com/en-gb/rover/mini/1969-2001

Available from MM here https://www.minimania.com/part/646/Austin-Mini-Haynes-Workshop-Manual-1969-2001

The manual also pops up on eBay occasionally.

 

 

 Posted: Mar 2, 2020 10:34AM
 Edited:  Mar 2, 2020 10:38AM
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Thanks for the replies!  You guys were helpful.  I am trying to get info because I'm planning on replacing my wheel bearings.  Having some clicking from the left front after removing and reinstalling the hub (replaced upper and lower balljoints).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bikewiz
Use the tapered washer from KAD without the slot and use the 12 slot castle nut from Classic Minis Japan.

The KAD washer is higher quality, a better fit, and doesn't crack. The 12 slot nut is higher quality, better fit, and prevents you from over torquing the nut when trying to align the slot.


KAD washer https://kentautodevelopments.com/collections/suspension/products/kad-cv-taper-washer

I remember looking at an exploded parts diagram showing a split tapered cone washer that went behind the inner wheel bearing but I thought I  remember it said that the coopers didn't use that.  

Where does this KAD washer get installed?  Is it in place of that one I mentioned above or is it the washer that goes directly under the axle nut over the outer wheel bearing?

 Posted: Feb 21, 2020 06:11AM
 Edited:  Feb 21, 2020 09:14AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benino

Are the inner races pressing against the spacer between them and not applying all of the torque against the tapered rollers?  If so, how is the play in the bearing set?   
The outer races get pressed into the hub until they hit a lip, so the machining of the hub sets how far apart they are.  Then the inner races get place in with the spacer between them.  If the spacer is actually setting the distance between the inner races, how is the play in the bearing ever set accurately enough?  

Yes, the races take the torque, not the rollers. So-called preloaded bearings.  No adjustment, altho it is recommended to pull things together with a flat washer first , the cone/tapered washer, mainly if you are doing the full assembly. 

Last year after I changed a rotor, I could not get the castle nut slot to line up with the hole to insert the cotterpin. Per instructions just keep going beyond 180. With a breaker bar I probably had 300.  The rollers never see that. If they do you have a problem. My mechanic friend said on the race track they tighten them up that much routinely and never break anything. Furthermore, if the castle nut loosens and the cotterpin comes into use, you have a problem like worn threads or more

 Posted: Feb 21, 2020 05:48AM
 Edited:  Feb 21, 2020 05:58AM
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This is what's called a "can of worms" question, everyone who replies will have an opinion, and so do I.

The bearing preload is set by the spacers built into the bearing, the sets are matched don't mix and match bits and buy genuine Timken bearings.

I can't tell you why the torque is so high but I can suggest doing what I did, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, use your own discretion.

Use the tapered washer from KAD without the slot and use the 12 slot castle nut from Classic Minis Japan.

The KAD washer is higher quality, a better fit, and doesn't crack. The 12 slot nut is higher quality, better fit, and prevents you from over torquing the nut when trying to align the slot.

My method is to set the torque wrench to 170 ft/lbs then tighten to the next slot on the 12 slot nut, the slot aligns at around 180 ft/lbs +- which I believe is more than tight enough, I have around 10k on the front bearings using this method.

If you use the standard nut, 188 ft/lbs, and next slot method, the torque on the nut can end up well over 200 ft/lbs. I have seen the CV end broken off at that torque.

KAD washer https://kentautodevelopments.com/collections/suspension/products/kad-cv-taper-washer
Classic Minis Japan nut //classicminisjapan.com/new-parts/high-quality-twelve-slot-castle-nut/

 

 

 Posted: Feb 21, 2020 12:20AM
 Edited:  Feb 21, 2020 11:00AM
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I have seen anywhere from 150 to 190 ft/lbs as the torque spec for the axle nut on the front wheel bearings (disc brakes).  

My porsche 924 with tapered roller bearings have the nut set to finger tight so as to keep the rollers from having too much interference.  It's then held in place with a pinch nut. Of course this is not front wheel drive... 

How can the Mini bearings take that much torque?  Are the inner races pressing against the spacer between them and not applying all of the torque against the tapered rollers?  If so, how is the play in the bearing set?   
The outer races get pressed into the hub until they hit a lip, so the machining of the hub sets how far apart they are.  Then the inner races get placed in with the spacer between them.  If the spacer is actually setting the distance between the inner races, how is the play in the bearing ever set accurately enough?